Authors of "Destination Hope: A Travel Companion When Life Falls Apart"
Ups and Downs are part of life, but sometimes the “downs” seem more like cliffs we can’t climb up. “We encourage women to see that the hit that knocks you down doesn’t have to keep you there,” Marilyn Nutter wrote to us in an email a few months back. Marilyn and her co-author April White have become affectionately known as “The Hope Ladies” and we are excited to share their stories.
Just when they thought they had life “figured out”, each was dealt a sudden harsh blow. Marilyn was blindsided, when 2,000 miles from home and two days before Christmas, her husband passed away. Out of nowhere, April was diagnosed with a rare chronic illness that caused a complete upheaval for her career, family and finances; not to mention making day to day living a struggle. These Hope Ladies tell their stories and that of other women who were shocked by unforeseen adversity, and how they held on to hope through embracing their faith and by encouraging each other. As April said to us in the podcast, “hope is a team sport.”
Hardships don’t happen in a vacuum; they can have ripple effects into all areas of life. They also affect those around us. In this episode, we’ll talk about traveling through these difficult circumstances and adapting to new realities. We talk about finding joy again and sharing that joy and hope with others.
We are told in scripture to expect troubles in this world (John 16:33), so how can all of us be a little more prepared when the unexpected comes our way? Our guests reveal what they’ve learned. Click play for a big helping of faith, hope and encouragement.
Sandy Kovach [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Imagine Yourself, where we help you imagine the next chapter of life with grace, gratitude, courage and faith
Lanée Blaise [00:00:08]:
I'm Lanee here with Sandy with a question for you. Can someone else's life story change your heart, Your mind, your life. We truly hope so. In fact, we have invited some hope ladies here today to do just that. Marilyn Nutter and April White, authors of Destination Hope, a travel companion when life falls apart. 10 years ago, Marilyn was blindsided when 2 days before Christmas, her husband suffered a fatal heart attack. And 6 years ago, April was diagnosed with a rare chronic illness. Their book has woven their stories along with those of other women who have dealt with hardships like infidelity, the loss of a child, financial reversals, The surprise of a special needs child and many more, all for the purpose of helping women regain their footing and their faith in god. We really want to just show our gratitude for both of you for coming to Imagine Yourself, April and Marilyn.
April White [00:01:19]:
Hi. Thanks for having us. Thank you.
Sandy Kovach [00:01:22]:
So ladies, first of all, my heart goes out to both of you for what you've been through, and I thank you for your courage in sharing your stories. And we'll definitely dig into those a little bit deeper. But the first question I think I wanna ask is, For folks who may not be going through something, is there a way to prepare? I mean, obviously, Unexpected things happen as it did with both of you. We can even look at the pandemic, for example. Nobody saw that coming. And for some, it was catastrophic. Others, The effect wasn't as great, but that's certainly something that everybody in the world went through in one way or the other, of course, different levels. But as unique individuals and as the things you went through, as the people in your book, the stories you tell went through, They were things that came out of the blue that were devastating. So is there a way to prepare for that?
April White [00:02:20]:
Well, I believe that There are ways to be prepared for the unexpected test. I remember sharing this with my daughter with, the whole concept of having a pop quiz. When you're in school, if the teacher says get out a sheet of paper, we're having a pop quiz. If you've not shown up to class, if you've been skipping school, And if you haven't been doing any of the homework, then you're you might be in a little bit of trouble. But if you've been showing up, If you've been paying attention, if you've been as a phrase we like to say at our house, if you've been where you're supposed to be, When you're supposed to be there doing what you're supposed to be doing, then there's a pretty good chance that you might pass this pop quiz. And I feel like the same is true with some unexpected things in life. Because at some point, all of us are going to come across Something unexpected. And, of course, this pandemic has really shifted us all in that mode. But for many of us, Marilyn and I and other widowers and chronic illness warriors. And for 1,000 upon 1,000 of other people, we've already been living in that world. And so we've already been using words like trying to find new normal and new identity even before the rest of the world was Just catching on the bandwagon. We were already there. So to answer your question, I do believe there is a way to do it, and I believe it starts with being honestly, deeply rooted and having a relationship in Jesus Christ And spending time in his word daily and having some of those key scripture verses Memorized so that when the rug gets pulled out from under you or you get hit with the pop quiz in life, these Things automatically come to mind. Now you may not be able to remember what chapter and verse it was in, you know, but you might be able to remember that God says he will not leave me nor forsake me. Or though I walk through the valley of the shadow of evil, I'll fear no death. I will fear no evil. You know, you might Stumble through it. Like, I just stumbled over Psalm 23. But you might still have it deep down rooted in your heart, and That is, I believe, the foundational piece for that.
Sandy Kovach [00:04:39]:
Hiding the word in your heart and developing that relationship then. Marilyn, did you want to add?
Marilyn Nutter [00:04:45]:
I definitely agree with everything that April said, and it's ironic or interesting Maybe that this morning, I just went to bible study, and we're in the book of Ephesians chapter 3 where Paul says, I want you to be rooted and established, And that is key. I don't think we can say we're prepared when we have observed someone else who has a particular trial in their life. We can learn from that, but I had company this weekend with my cousin who's a widow, And she is a facilitator for a grief group. And she said, I tell my grievers that if you've seen 1 person grieving, that's all you've seen is that person grieving. That no 2 people grieve the same way. No 2 people navigate chronic illness the same way or, a special needs child. You know, if it's your problem, it's your problem. It's personal. And yet we also have a very personal god who desires to communicate with us. And we look at the rest of that chapter in Ephesians where he talks about his glorious riches and his immeasurable greatness and how he wants to do more than we can even think or ask or imagine. And it is being prepared by being rooted and established and knowing his word. I may not be able to memorize it. In fact, it's difficult now With all the verses we have, you know, we memorize something in the NIV, but now you're studying in the ESV or the new living translation and Words get so mixed up, but it is the principle behind it. And it's the truth claim that it offers That we can hold onto, and that is what I would encourage listeners to do is to be rooted and established And take time for intimacy because your intimacy will determine How you feel you have the authority in Christ to navigate these things, you know, because it's by his power that we live. And yet if we have very little intimacy, we're not even gonna have a grasp on what that power really is.
Lanée Blaise [00:06:59]:
You've made a good point, Marilyn, because in this life, we are very busy, and we sometimes Get too busy to take time out with God, to take time to study his word, to take time to listen to his voice Within us, the part that I love about your book, Destination Hope, is that you have an analogy of going on a road trip of life, And you use you really truly use the highway rest stops that will come along the way to make sure that you do rest And refresh and replenish. And that is just something people talk a lot about it lately, but So many people struggle with actually doing it. And I think part of the problem is that maybe people don't realize when you do take that time to rest And to be still and to listen to god, you might end up avoiding some pitfalls, not all of them, but you also So might end up crazy enough being more productive than you were if you just rushed off and did things your way.
Marilyn Nutter [00:08:12]:
Lanée Blaise [00:08:12]:
And I I wonder if that's part of the preparation that you can do, part of the things that you can do, because we don't know if we're gonna Detours in life or you mentioned in the book falling rocks ahead or smooth roads possible. Accidents could happen too. But if you take that time out, I feel like you are more likely to be strengthened from within to handle When some of the really tough things do hit, that's just something I really took away from your book.
Marilyn Nutter [00:08:41]:
Yes. Thank you. You know, when you say the rest areas and you You mentioned too the busyness of society. We are such an approval, Affirmation society that unless we're accomplishing, achieving, doing, the impression is we're not doing anything or we're lazy. And yet rest Rest is such an important part of our life, whether it's physical rest, spiritual rest, mental rest, whatever it is, that we're always thinking of the next thing. We're thinking of the next thing on our calendar, the next urgent thing to do, and rest is not doing nothing And neither is waiting. I remember going to a retreat one time, and she said, waiting is not doing nothing. Waiting is an important something. And I would say that is the same thing that happens with rest. And going back to the first question, how we are prepared, We are prepared when we learn to wait. I mean, April waited a year for her diagnosis. And how do we wait? We have to wait well. But unless we train ourselves to do that, unless we have established a habit of resting and learning to wait well, We're going to be in a frenzy Wow. When when we have a life detour.
April White [00:10:00]:
During that time, when I was Waiting for the name of a diagnosis and getting referred to Duke Medical Center, I developed my own acronym for the word trust. Every year, I pick a word, and that year, my word was trust. And so, you know, the acronym of t r u s t. So I said I created an acronym for trust that meant truly resting. Well, resting on god's and then you was unfailing sovereign timing. So truly resting in god's unveiling sovereign timing. And that acronym And that new definition of the word trust, in that year where I was pulled away from work Thinking that I was gonna name it, claim it, and move on, like, we would just figure out what was wrong with me really quick, and then I would, like, Pop a pill and go back to work as a pharmacist and life would move on, and that drugged out for over a year And waiting for a second opinion. And in that time frame, the doctors could not or did not wanna give me medication because they didn't have a name for it, So they couldn't treat my illness, and I was still having these random attacks of paralysis, and yet they didn't know how to treat it or what to do because they didn't Know what the name of it was. And even as a health care professional, I have a doctorate degree in pharmacy. Up until that point, until I was in the patient's shoes, I never understood how important a name is because my doctors because they didn't have a name For my illness, they didn't have a diagnosis. They had what they called a working diagnosis. We're leaning towards this, so we think it might be this. And, You know, they had ruled out things like multiple sclerosis and myasthenia gravis, and they ruled out lupus, and they had ruled out Some of the big ones. But because they hadn't been able to narrow it down, I was stuck in limbo. And in that limbo, They couldn't treat me with medication because they didn't know what it was. And so in daily chronic pain, waking up Paralyzed, unable to work. Let's be real. Long term disability is running out. I've got these monkeys on my back From long term disability calling me, wanting to know, am I better? Am I cured? And am I going back to work today? And, Yeah. Wow. I don't even have a name for it. And so these are the things that you just unless you've been through it, you have no idea. And we eventually had to sell our lakefront house. It was beautiful and moved closer to town and downsize and just All the things.
Sandy Kovach [00:12:53]:
All this while you're going through all this pain and suffering.
April White [00:12:56]:
Meanwhile, we're having to do all this, And I don't think I share this in the book, but for financial reasons, we ended up having to put majority of our stuff in storage. And Our home is on a, is on a lake, and it is a prime vacation place. So we rented out our home for the Summer, while we moved in with my family
April White [00:13:22]:
We had to do that to make ends meet because we hadn't sold our house. It had been on the market and didn't self. And that was so humbling
April White [00:13:31]:
To at 40 years old with your husband, your 2 kids, and your 2 dogs Move back in with mom and dad.
Lanée Blaise [00:13:38]:
And that's all something that was unexpected.
April White [00:13:42]:
But on the flip side to that, When we sold the house, we had some specific prayer requests, and we had dueling offers. And as Marilyn said, Ephesians 3:20, God did it abundantly more. The people bought our house, wanted it as a vacation house, wanted to buy our house Lock, stock, and barrel. Boat, furniture, you name it. We've been married for almost 20 years at the point at that point, we were happy to get new furniture. So
Marilyn Nutter [00:14:12]:
But, you know, as I'm I'm listening to April, and, obviously, I've heard this story many times as we've talked and shared The the 2 things that she mentioned here was number 1, waiting for that diagnosis, But secondly, the description of all she went through as a chronic illness patient and now is a chronic illness warrior Doesn't fit the profile of a lot of other people with chronic illness, so no 2 people are alike. And when we're Talk about that, and that's where we go back to being rooted and established that that is the only common ground that we really have. That we're we are different, and we do have different experiences, but yet we have to always go back to our firm foundation in Christ.
Sandy Kovach [00:14:59]:
So that is an intense story, and I know a lot of people have suffer from chronic illness and suffer in silence. And, my heart goes out to April, and I'm just I'm glad that you're telling us this story. And part of what we wanna do in this podcast is To have people listen to what you've been through and how you dealt with it in the various things, whether it's because they see themselves in the story, to develop empathy, or to just learn about trusting god. So, Marilyn, let me get to your story real quick here. Now you haven't had, like, a a big party for the past few years either.
Marilyn Nutter [00:15:33]:
It has not. Well, my story I know in the introduction, you mentioned that I was blindsided by widowhood 10, years ago. It was 2 days before Christmas, but we were also traveling, and we were 2,000 miles from home when this happened. We were visiting our daughter and her family out west, And, my husband experienced some chest pains. They were in a small town, went to the hospital, and said, no. He has to be life flighted To a larger city. So it was winter. We drove, and there are a lot of interesting parts about that that our youngest daughter, Through my husband's ingenuity and tran and changing her flight, she was able to be with us in Idaho. Otherwise, That poor girl would have been either back in Charlotte by herself or stranded in an airport when we got the news that my husband didn't make it. So there we are, the 23rd December, and, my son in law's a pastor. He was supposed to preach Christmas Eve. He did not, obviously, but my 2 grandchildren who were 57 Still wanted to go to church and sing for papa. Aw. And they were in the choir, and so we told them they could go, but we were leaving. And We got there in time for my son-in-law to share with we had gone there for 18 years, so people knew us very well. And he said, The one we are worshiping tonight, my father-in-law is now face to face with. And so we did go through the motions Christmas morning and open gifts. We had 2 children, 5 & 7. What do you do? Of course, we open our gifts that are under the tree. And it happened to be the 1st Christmas my, Granddaughter used her own money to buy Christmas presents for my husband and myself.
Lanée Blaise [00:17:23]:
Marilyn Nutter [00:17:24]:
And it was under the tree, and she handed it to me. And I said, do you want me to open this for Papa, and she said yes. And so that is what began a change in my life that was, as April said, Unexpected. And I had observed other widows, but I didn't know how to be 1. It's like a first time parent. What do you do? You have this infant in your in a crib here. I've never taken care of an infant before. I've never walked this widow's journey, Not realizing that it's more than the loss of a person. It's the loss of your dreams, your future, all the plans that you had. It's Becoming when my husband died, we had 4 grandchildren. I now have 8. So I have become a grandmother without sharing that with my husband. And those are all the future losses we talk about in our book too. It's not a onetime event. There are so many secondary losses and future losses because your future is irreparably changed. April's future is irreparably changed as she lives with a chronic illness and is no longer practicing as a pharmacist. When we've talked, we said she hung up her lab coat in the back of the closet, never to use it again. I took off my wedding ring Because our lives are dramatically changed.
Lanée Blaise [00:18:51]:
Everything you said makes me think about Two sides of a coin as far as when we experience these things, We do want some kind of formula as to how to get through it. And, like you said, to make sure that we were initially rooted in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but also Some people still we still will grasp for something tangible as far as that we can see. And this Leads me to the fact that you do have a Destination Hope Facebook group to try to give encouragement. And and you even alluded to your friend who has the grief support group. Because sometimes god's other children can help, you know, while we're grieving and while we're going through some of these various situations. But the other side of the coin is if we ourselves are not going through this particular illness Or grief or circumstance. How do we make sure that we show compassion In the best ways possible. Because also in your book, I noticed from both of you, from April, sometimes when you get the, So are you all better yet? It just you wanna make sure that you don't come at someone like that, If at all possible. And then with Marilyn, you mentioned that there are some things that you have to carve out space for yourself So that you don't become overwhelmed with people who might want to, especially earlier on, try to get you back into the action and, You know, get back out there. And sometimes you do need to be mindful that people need space, and you told us The people grieve differently, and it's not always gonna be the same. So just because so and so was back and popping on the scene After, you know, just 6 months or 1 month or 1 year, that doesn't mean that that's gonna be the same for the next person. And I just wonder how both of you can answer both sides, how people can be more compassionate, and how we can really reach out to those who Do understand.
Marilyn Nutter [00:21:08]:
Two words come to mind when you were asking and describing some of those things. 1 is respect, and the other is grace. And I think it's a respect for the individual. There is no timetable for grief. I can speak to widowhood. There is no Our timetable, there is uniqueness. No 2 people grieve alike. There is no formula even though there are tools. I facilitate a grief support group for spouses. And, actually, after my husband died, very early, I went to a grief share group because 6 months later, my daughter was getting married, and I needed to figure out who am I now? What am I going to do? I needed to be happy for her, But I'm planning a wedding when I don't even have a marriage. This is very difficult, and I didn't wanna diminish Her experience, she was grieving also. So it was very, very complicated, which I think is what we could say about everything we address, whether it's the financial reversals, the mother of a special needs child, the infidelity, the host of Life interruptions and life altering circumstances that we talk about in our book, they are that person's. They are unique, And it all goes back to being rooted and established and to recognize I am not in a sprint. As I said, my cousin was just visiting me, and she's a widow. Our experiences are very different. We're not competing with each other. And How far along are you in this journey? How far along am I in this journey? And giving grace to the people who do not understand, The comments when someone says, oh, my husband had a heart attack heart attack, but he's just fine. Isn't god good? That was so piercing to me because the fact that your husband is fine and mine is really finer in heaven If we want to really address that Yeah. Doesn't mean that God wasn't good to me because God's Character is not dependent on results or outcomes or circumstances. God's character is to be good. He is good in all that he does. So I would go back to your question and say for anyone who is In the company of someone who is going through a very hard time, respect where they are, their uniqueness, and give grace.
Lanée Blaise [00:23:36]:
Yes. How about you, April? You've seen a lot of this too in a different way.
April White [00:23:41]:
So many words. In so many words, I've had to swallow and keep my mouth shut. Marilyn is so gracious to say grace, And I'm like, girl, you better put some duct tape on my mouth because I want to say some words to you. Yes. You know? Just this morning, I posted on my Instagram story something from, a writer and her she goes by on Instagram, KJ Ramsey, And she said hope is a team sport. I love that. Love that. I liked it. I hearted it. I Shared it. And now I'm sharing it with you guys. Hope is a team sport recording with AJ Ramsey. And that is our desire in this book is to link arms with other women With that are going through things similar to us, that are going through things dissimilar to us. Until you've been through some hard things, I don't think you really have the empathy for others until you have walked a hard path yourself. It doesn't have to be in the same Choose, but until you walk a hard road, a hard path, that enables you to have empathy and compassion for other people. All of us know someone that is going through that has had heart attacks, that is battling cancer. And we all almost intrinsically know how to respond to People that have been through those situations. Like, we know what to say and what not to say. But when people are going through An unexpected health crisis or an unexpected relational issue, and we don't have boundaries, and we don't have a clear Concrete visual or image of what that is. Like, my illness is so rare that in the town in which I live in, the city in which I I live in is a 100,000 people, and my illness is one out of a 100,000 people. So every time I drive into city limits and I see the little sign It says you're entering into, you know, Roanoke city limits. I think to myself, I'm the one. Like, truly, I am the one out of a100000. I'm the 1 person in this area that has my rare illness. And so I can't expect people that don't understand my rare illness To even be able to put words around it when some days I can't even put words around it myself.
Lanée Blaise [00:26:04]:
April White [00:26:04]:
And so I agree with everything Marilyn said. Respect for others, respect for yourself, and grace for yourself, and grace for others. And I have learned to say things like when they say, oh, you're not better yet, or I'm like, well, I have a a saying. I say I get by every day with Jesus coffee and afternoon naps.
Marilyn Nutter [00:26:26]:
April White [00:26:27]:
it's cute. It's a cute phrase, but it is also The honest truth. Jesus, coffee, and afternoon naps. And you ladies better believe that when we're done with our cast today. I'm taking a big fat nap. So Yes. Because I will have used up all of the energy reserves that I have for Today, I've taken additional medication prior to this conversation so that I Don't have an attack through the middle of our conversation, but then that will wear me out. And so I've come up with some creative ways to say things to people, but it's it's not easy.
Sandy Kovach [00:27:09]:
Suffering in silence. Chronic illness. You see people every day that you have no idea what they're going through. Like, I would have never known that, April, That you literally had to take extra medication, that you're gonna be exhausted after a Zoom call. So when How can we, as we go through our normal lives, we go to the grocery store. We go you know, we see somebody. We don't know what they're through. And, you know, you see that quote a lot. Be kind. You never know what somebody is going through, but that is so true. How can we be extra sensitive to folks?
April White [00:27:42]:
I've just learned through this illness. I have learned just to my kids kinda get annoyed with me because they're like, mom, they'll talk to anybody. But I have learned to just give encouragement to just the random people. Like, when I'm at the grocery store and the mom has got the baby in the heart, and the other one's trying to crawl out, and she's checking out our groceries. And if, obviously, I have the strength to go to the grocery store that day, because Some days that doesn't happen. I'm there, and I have strength. I'll say, mom, I've been there. Mine are teenagers. You just watch your crew, and let me put them in the cart for you. And she'll just be, like, almost, you know, thank you so much. And I'll just, like, put them on the conveyor belt for. Like, just simple things like that. Or If I'm in the parking lot and you've got the same scenario, you've got the mom and the kids, and it's like you're trying to put the kids in the car first or you put the groceries in the car first. And then it's like, well, you can't really put the cart away and leave your kids, and so I'll just say, hey. Let me put the cart away for you. You know, just like, I've been there. Let me do that for you. Just make Simple things or I'll just say, you know what? It's hard, but you're killing it, and you look good doing it or something. You know? Just something. Yeah. To let them know that they're not forgotten and they're seen. You know? It's hard.
Lanée Blaise [00:29:02]:
Like you said, I've been there. I've been there is just A real connection piece for people and, like, you know, doing something kind, saying something kind, And that's the part you never know. You never know the impact that you might have on someone because that same mom might go home And feel a little bit more refreshed and have a little bit better day with her family, and it is sometimes a culmination of the little things. And I love that term with hope is a team sport. That one's a drop the mic right there. So I wonder if now is the time to talk about how anyone who's listening can get a copy of your book, Destination Hope, Or if they want to reach out to you on your platforms with social media, your websites, would you each take a little moment To give that insight on how people can reach out, we could start with April.
April White [00:29:59]:
Well, let me give you the full title. It's Destination Hope, a Travel companion when life falls apart. It's available online at, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Books A Million, Target, Walmart, christianbook.com. You can find me at aprirdawnwhite.com. I am on Instagram at author April Dawn White and Facebook under April Dawn White author. And I'll tell you Facebook and Instagram are my 2 favorite hideouts. I think I have an account in Pinterest, But I don't go there very often unless I'm looking up another way to cook chicken for dinner, or an autoimmune recipe And Twitter yeah. I have an account with Twitter, but I don't go there. Like, my brain I got such brain fog. I can't keep up with those witty people over Twitter. Like, I am, like, midlife, menopause, and brain fog, and you people are too savvy for me. So I can't so don't reach out to me there.
Lanée Blaise [00:30:59]:
April keeps it real. I I love it. And what about our Marilyn?
Marilyn Nutter [00:31:05]:
April and I are so good for each other. We are a generation apart. Blisters can't see us, but we are. We live in 2 different states for a generation apart, and we've linked arms together, and it has been Incredible. She corrects me sometimes with some of my old language that I use, and she said, what are you talking about? But, anyway, that's a that's a story for another time. I have a website, marylene netter.com. I have an author page also at on Facebook at Marilyn Nutter. I am on Pinterest. I'm on Instagram at Marilyn Murata Nutter because I used my maiden name there, and I'm also on LinkedIn. We do have a Destination Hope Facebook group, which you can Just request to join, and we'll admit you. It's a private group, which is why we ask you to join. And we have people from all over the country on that group that was designed to offer hope and humor and encouragement. It's not an advertisement for our book by any means, but we know Hope is a team sport. People need hope.
Sandy Kovach [00:32:08]:
And we'll put a link to your websites on our page too at imagine yourself podcast.com, And I know that'll link out to all your socials. We'll put those links in the show notes. And we will also link to where you can purchase the book, which, by the way, Linae said was absolutely a life changer.
Lanée Blaise [00:32:28]:
Marilyn Nutter [00:32:29]:
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. We appreciate that.
Lanée Blaise [00:32:33]:
Yeah. It is something that we need to infuse our lives with hope And love and faith just like, you know, the Bible says in 1st Corinthians 13:13, and now these 3 remain, Faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love. And the reason I say we need to infuse ourselves with it is because It's kinda answering this whole theme today of how to prepare ourselves for whatever life is going to throw at us. We become rooted. We stay hopeful. We stay faithful. We stay loving. We stay close to god. But I just want to take this moment to truly and genuinely thank both of you for bringing us new definitions of hope, New ways to look for it. You 2 are our hope dealers. I know that you mentioned that in your press release, but Thank you for today's lessons and inspirations, both of you.
April White [00:33:29]:
Thank you. It's been a joy.
Lanée Blaise [00:33:31]:
So for everyone, imagine yourself Staying close to God and to continuously seek hope, find hope, hold on to that hope As you get through all the different situations, even the ones that you may have never expected.
Sandy Kovach [00:33:48]:
Thank you so much for listening. Hope you were blessed By this episode, you can go to our website, imagine yourself podcast.com, to read the blog, check out the links To Marilyn and April and all of our socials, we'd love it too if you could subscribe or follow and give a rating to the podcast. So when you do that, it helps other people find us and maybe find hope
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